The Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast
The Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast
Creating a good experience of work for frontline (public-facing) workers
This month Dr Helen Fitzhugh speaks with George Challouma from the Marina Bay Cafe in Gorleston (near Great Yarmouth). They discuss ways in which any business - large or small - can create a great experience at work for public-facing workers and benefit as a business from doing so. Their conversation calls upon George's experience and the '4 boosts for frontline workers' model, developed during the Good Jobs Project at the University of East Anglia, by Helen and her colleagues Ritchie Woodard and Andrea James.
This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence-informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research Team based at the University of East Anglia, in the UK. You can find the resources (including the '4 boosts' infographic, video, handbook and FAQ) on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org
00:00:05:02 - 00:00:37:08
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free evidence-informed Workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research Team, based at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org . The contents of the toolkit draw upon cutting edge multi-disciplinary research on workplace wellbeing, including insider insights and case studies.
00:00:38:06 - 00:00:55:23
Helen Fitzhugh
We want to help you take evidence-informed action to help your business evolve and thrive. Every six weeks, a member of our team will introduce you to a new piece of research and to someone whose life experience puts a human face on that same research topic.
00:00:58:02 - 00:01:17:12
Helen Fitzhugh
We're here today to talk about how businesses can provide a good experience of work that helps retain staff in frontline, that is public facing jobs. I'm Helen Fitzhugh, researcher and Knowledge Exchange Fellow at the University of East Anglia. And I'm here talking with George Challouma, managing director of the Marina Bay Café in Great Yarmouth. George, thank you for joining us.
00:01:17:21 - 00:01:18:21
George Challouma
Thank you for inviting me.
00:01:19:11 - 00:01:25:22
Helen Fitzhugh
We've obviously met before, but for the audience, can you tell us a little bit about your experience of working with staff in frontline roles?
00:01:26:00 - 00:01:47:22
George Challouma
Yeah, my name is George Challouma. As you said, Managing Director of Marina Bay Cafe in Gorleston. Basically, it’s a 60 seater café with outdoor seating for 30 people. That's open all year round, not seasonal. Open all year round. I've got about 12 full time stroke part time staff that work for me, and I've had it for just over three years.
00:01:48:21 - 00:02:06:18
Helen Fitzhugh
Lovely. So during our recent research at the University of East Anglia, we identified ‘4 boosts for frontline workers’: ways in which employers could improve employee experience of work. We'll talk about the four boosts in a minute. But first for you, what are the key issues in creating a good working environment?
00:02:08:02 - 00:02:46:12
George Challouma
Well, I’ve got quite a few. I think you got to establish what makes frontline workers tick, what motivates them, and try and create an atmosphere with your workers where they're comfortable working with you and within a team, which – end goal - rubs off on the customers. So if they're happy, happy employees, happy customers. I try to be flexible. I mean, I never used to be, but since I took the business over, I've tried to be flexible with each person's life or lifestyles, i.e. kids, you know, elderly parents, things like that.
00:02:46:12 - 00:03:03:12
George Challouma
So yeah, whenever I fix a rota for the following weeks, I do ask the question, well, you know what days are you free? Are you happy to work these days and kind of leaves it up to them to tell me what they can do? Yeah. Instead of me telling them what to do. And in all honesty, that that works really well.
00:03:03:18 - 00:03:37:14
George Challouma
Great. I try to get to know people's backgrounds as well. You know their family lives, where they live, kids, pets, without being too intrusive because obviously all of us have got our own pressures. Money pressures, life pressures, kids pressures. I'm not one that kind of sits there and makes decisions myself. I try and bring other people into the conversations because they might have ideas that help me because I'm although I've been in sort of customer service for a very long time, I'm always learning in this world.
00:03:37:14 - 00:03:57:15
George Challouma
So we try and make decisions collectively. So try and involve people when they think, Oh, I only work here but actually he’s asking me a question about something that's a little bit out of my way and out of my comfort zone. I try to lead by example, but people have said to me before as well, you know, why you sweeping up, why are you wiping the table?
00:03:57:15 - 00:04:24:09
George Challouma
What you're doing, you're the boss. Yeah, I'm the boss. But sometimes you do that and it kind of people follow you. Yeah, you know, can't it People follow you. So I do like to do it to show that if I want someone to do it for me, I should be prepared to do it as well. Really, the other advantage is as well is to try and get together every quarter, every sort of six months together, whether it's, you know, drink, whether it's a bit of food.
00:04:24:09 - 00:04:34:18
George Challouma
Yeah, but just again, as a get together, just get out of the work zone or the work pressures in a bit more of a comfort zone and let people just relax, and you know, themselves.
00:04:35:00 - 00:04:58:23
Helen Fitzhugh
Thank you, George. What really struck me there is so much of that relates to the ‘4 boosts’ framework that we created from the Good Jobs Project research, which you were kindly involved in. And I'll go through the ‘4 boosts’ model now just for our audience, because people might not have seen it. So we ran the Good Jobs project and we were interested in what makes a good experience of work for frontline workers.
00:04:58:23 - 00:05:21:14
Helen Fitzhugh
And we came up with these ‘4 boosts’ that managers and other employees can do to support people, to have a good experience of work, whatever work they do. And I think that's really important. It's not just about, Oh, you can have a good experience of work if you are a, you know, an executive earning loads of money or having a lot of influence on something, you know, actually any kind of job can be improved by these four boosts.
00:05:22:01 - 00:05:52:12
Helen Fitzhugh
So they to run through them. We had let me connect and these are boosts that are in the words of the workers that we interviewed for our research. So Let me Connect is all about giving frontline workers the time, support and flexibility they need to be able to connect with customers and feel pride in their work. So that's really bringing out the positive of public facing work, frontline work and helping people to really experience what it's like to feel meaning in their work of giving service in some way.
00:05:53:09 - 00:06:14:22
Helen Fitzhugh
Then we've got care about me and my life. That's very much like what you said, George, about that kind of non-intrusive but friendly understanding what's going on in people's lives and making that time to understand, you know, how how work will impact them and how their experiences will impact them at work. Then we've got to have my back.
00:06:14:22 - 00:06:34:01
Helen Fitzhugh
So we've talked about the positive side of public facing work. Have my Back is about the fact that there will always be times when you know, there are issues or problems in public facing work. It's just going to come up. But if the manager and other employees have people’s back, we're trained, we have support. We can debrief after a particular incident.
00:06:34:01 - 00:07:04:02
Helen Fitzhugh
You know, we've we've got that sense of each having each other's back. That's definitely something that helps keep people in roles. And the opposite obviously means that they might leave. So and then we've got make me part of the conversation – again in the words of the workers. This definitely came out with regard to the COVID pandemic when there were lots of organizations that were really good at keeping people up to date on what they knew, even if it was uncertain and, you know, when people would be furloughed, that kind of thing.
00:07:04:09 - 00:07:23:02
Helen Fitzhugh
But there were also lots of organizations that really weren't good at that: weren’t transparent and open, and the workers felt very left on their own. So Make me part of the conversation is a really important thing of being kind of open about decision making and having that input. And that was something you said as well, George, so I was really glad that you brought that up.
00:07:23:02 - 00:07:47:15
Helen Fitzhugh
Thank you. So all of those ‘4 boosts’ obviously need to happen from a foundation of respect. So as well as on the ‘4 boosts’ infographic and handbook, we've got let me connect care about me and my life, have my back and make me part of the conversation. We've also got this this element in the kind of infographic which is about pay, fair conditions, you know, making sure people are safe, that kind of thing.
00:07:47:22 - 00:08:08:21
Helen Fitzhugh
And you can't really boost people's experience of work if you haven't got a foundation to boost from. So it's really important to acknowledge that as well. So those are our ‘4 boosts’. We've got an infographic, a handbook, a video, all sorts of things on the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing toolkit website about them. But George, what do you think of the ‘4 boosts’?
00:08:08:21 - 00:08:31:18
George Challouma
Well, a lot you've already said I’ve, you know, pretty much thrown up some of the boosts already in previous discussion. But what I try and say to people is - because hospitality is always perceived as an area of work where people kind of a fall back at work. Yeah, you know, oh it’s really really easy, I can go and do this,
00:08:31:18 - 00:08:51:24
George Challouma
I can go and serve coffees, I can serve people, I can deal with customers, but actually it is straightforward, but it does offer you great insights to your the rest of your life with dealing with people. So because you're forced to do it. Yeah. You're forced to say hello to someone. You're forced to actually ask somebody, can I help you?
00:08:52:10 - 00:09:18:18
George Challouma
Are you forced to go into areas that really, you know, you're not really comfortable with? What I try and say to people is: this might be just a means to earn yourself some money until you reach your final career goal. But try and encompass as much as you can from your experience working with me and within hospitality as there's not many sectors that you could work and learn from while you deal with customers, work, colleagues, money, pressure, stress, happiness, sadness,
00:09:19:00 - 00:09:24:24
George Challouma
Like hospitality does. There’s not so many jobs you can do that encompass such a broad area of.
00:09:25:07 - 00:09:25:20
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah.
00:09:25:22 - 00:09:56:10
George Challouma
Different skills and pressures and stresses. My aim is always to provide as much of my experience and knowledge to people. So even if they at least take away 5% of what I've taught them. I'd like for them to look back and take a step back in their career in ten or 15 years time, say, Wow, that snippet of information or knowledge, I learnt that when I was working with George at Marina Bay Cafe.
00:09:56:12 - 00:10:23:02
George Challouma
Yeah, people will say, you know why they leaving and nothing, you know why why would you go to another job? Nothing would give me greater pleasure than someone working with me, a certain amount of time, reaching their goal of whatever they decide to do in life, but learning the core basics of communication, teamwork, customer interaction whilst being with me basically.
00:10:23:04 - 00:10:43:15
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah. And I really appreciate that attitude, George, because, you know, in our research for the Good Jobs Project we spoke to some people about seasonal workers, about young workers, and sometimes there was this sort of attitude that the training them up was a waste of time or that it was something that people didn't like because then they just lost the workers after it.
00:10:43:16 - 00:10:45:24
Helen Fitzhugh
So I'm really interested in your perspective on that.
00:10:46:16 - 00:11:13:24
George Challouma
To be honest. I don't see it. I would say it is a positive point. I would say is - don't get me wrong, it's not good losing good people - Yeah, after you’ve provided, you know, training, employment for them for X amount of time. But with hospitality, there is a lot of people out there that work in hospitality, but the majority of them do come from college, school, you know, university, and it's literally a stepping stone for them to earn money,
00:11:14:15 - 00:11:33:09
George Challouma
Until they reach on to greater things. I'll just see it as a positive point for myself. Like I said to you before, it's just a snippet. If they take five or 10% of what I've taught them, it wouldn't give me any more pleasure for them to go and take it to their next job and say, actually, what about if I do this?
00:11:33:21 - 00:11:43:20
George Challouma
All this I've done, I've done this at Marina Bay. Yes. And that would give me great pleasure, too, for someone to actually look back and think, I learnt that with George, basically.
00:11:44:03 - 00:11:45:23
Helen Fitzhugh
You've had an impact then? Yeah.
00:11:46:01 - 00:11:50:21
George Challouma
On their life, impact. And might be on their life, is definitely going to be on their career, but it might even be in their life as well.
00:11:50:21 - 00:12:00:09
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, great. Thank you. So and what benefits, have you seen, of doing more to create that kind of great working experience for people?
00:12:00:21 - 00:12:20:05
George Challouma
People happy, happy at work, retention. People want to stay with me. People want to learn with me, you know, it's always banded about about money and people hard up of money. But sometimes, you know, I've got people that stayed with me, although they've been offered, you know, same job, more money, elsewhere.
00:12:20:07 - 00:12:21:00
Helen Fitzhugh
Interesting.
00:12:21:00 - 00:12:42:09
George Challouma
It just their experience working with me in working in the environment is better for them than actually having to earn more money elsewhere. So that's what I try and say to people is, listen, I get it. I know everyone's under financial pressure and I’d totally understand if you walked away. Yeah, for more money. But always remember it's not always about money.
00:12:42:09 - 00:12:55:16
George Challouma
Think of the long term: what you're going to learn here and what you're not going to learn or what you might not learn there, you know, and people will take that and say actually, I'm going to stay here and persist with you and hopefully learn a lot more.
00:12:55:17 - 00:13:00:18
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, and that's a real benefit in the current environment, isn't it? It's actually quite hard for retention in hospitality at the moment, isn’t it?
00:13:00:20 - 00:13:01:14
George Challouma
It is very.
00:13:02:07 - 00:13:11:10
Helen Fitzhugh
What are the other challenges that employers face at the moment? We've talked about retention, but you know, what's going on in kind of public facing work?
00:13:12:20 - 00:13:38:09
George Challouma
30, 40 years ago it was different, you know, leading, managing, supervising, directing was different. You know, you could do certain things and you kind of get away of it and people would accept it. Now, the world's changed and you've got kind of adapt yourself to this change. You got to understand that when you employ somebody, it's you're always looking for the ideal candidate.
00:13:38:14 - 00:13:57:10
George Challouma
Yeah, right. Always. Always. You can ask any director, manager, supervisor. We want the best person you know in there. And it's really hard. It's really hard. I’ve interviewed - I couldn't tell you how many people I’ve interviews – I’ve sat there waiting for people to come and interview that don't even turn up. Yeah. So that's this kind of scenario we're in at the moment.
00:13:57:10 - 00:14:25:07
George Challouma
But what people what you must realize is: if you get one person, you've got to adjust yourself to actually knowing that ideal world 100% perfect, but trying to bring your expectations down and bring it to 60 or 70% and, and use their big benefits positively and hope that the other people in your team will make up for their downfalls if you understand me.
00:14:25:18 - 00:14:40:20
George Challouma
So try and work it that way. So yeah, it's difficult. Like I said, with finding the right people and yeah, pay, trying to sort of keep up with the, the bigger fish in the pond as we say. Yeah. Because to be honest I'm quite small fry compared to a lot of businesses out there.
00:14:41:01 - 00:15:00:09
Helen Fitzhugh
But it's what I really like George, is the fact that, you know, you are small but you're doing all these things to try and think about the workplace culture you're providing. So for me that says that, you know, any organization can do this because I think sometimes we have people who say, Well, I'm not Google. You know, Google can do all of those things, but actually anyone can do this.
00:15:00:09 - 00:15:27:07
George Challouma
Exactly. Course they can. I mean, it's you can build a great team by not necessarily having people that you think are 100%. Yeah, it's very easy. You know, it's very straightforward, very easy. But you have to be patient and you absolutely have to give people an opportunity. Yeah, because once you start, you know, it's taken me over three years now to get to where I am, and I'm getting to a point now where I'm getting a reputation.
00:15:28:01 - 00:15:35:22
George Challouma
So I'm getting the reputation for good customer service and good food. But I can't. It's that's not me.
00:15:36:04 - 00:15:36:11
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah.
00:15:36:21 - 00:15:54:04
George Challouma
I can't do that on my own. So, like the saying goes, I'm only as good as the people that work for me. So the only reason we've got to where we've got to is because the people I've got. Yeah. And I can tell you, in fact, although the people I’ve got working with me are all very good in my personal opinion, you know.
00:15:54:19 - 00:16:04:03
George Challouma
Yeah, they're 60 or 70 or 80%, but there's other people in the team that make up for anyone else's downfall, not downfall but limitations. Yeah.
00:16:04:05 - 00:16:10:12
Helen Fitzhugh
It’s like putting a puzzle together isn’t it? Exactly. You've got a great puzzle when it's finished, but you need to work out how to get them together.
Exactly.
00:16:10:12 - 00:16:22:20
George Challouma
And it is difficult. You’re never going to go to a workplace where everyone's going to be, you know, always they're always going to be different. But just go in, do the best you can, because at the end of any conversation with anybody is a customer.
00:16:22:24 - 00:16:49:11
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, yeah. I'm just really appreciating how much the word learning is coming up in this in this conversation. So that's brilliant. And so we've been talking about creating a good culture at work and obviously I've got the ‘4 boosts’ there on the Evolve Workplace website. You know, people can go and look for those. But just for you, what final message would you like those people listening to the podcast to remember from from listening today?
00:16:50:02 - 00:17:15:16
George Challouma
I think like I’ve reiterated before, lead by example, don't expect staff members to do something, you’re not comfortable doing. Yeah. And so lead the way and guide people the right way. So, you know, it might be something very simple and you might go do it and people say oh I didn’t think think about it that way, which is a lot simpler for everyone else.
00:17:16:14 - 00:17:17:07
George Challouma
Be flexible.
00:17:17:12 - 00:17:17:20
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah
00:17:18:00 - 00:17:39:01
George Challouma
Be flexible to people's life pressures. And yeah, I think take care of your employees. If you take care of employees, then that's like a domino. Yeah, they’ll take care of your customers. So that's pretty much it. Really.
00:17:39:07 - 00:18:03:22
Helen Fitzhugh
That's. That's great. Thank you. Just before we finish, I just want to say we were delighted to have you take part in our Good Jobs project research, and you kind of feed into the richness of all the comments we were able to use in our handbook and in our frequently asked questions document. So just to finish off for today, I wondered if I could ask you what it was like for you to be taking part in that research?
00:18:04:20 - 00:18:33:18
George Challouma
It's been excellent. I’ve learnt loads studying it, to be honest. It kind of takes you back. When I first started learning about customer service and, you know, staff interaction and customer interaction, it kind of gets the brain going again and brings up loads of new ideas. So yeah, I've learned loads. I've brought some further ideas into my head about other things I'm going to do and like I say to everybody you never stop learning.
00:18:33:20 - 00:18:41:16
George Challouma
I'm just turned 50 myself, so I'm you never stop learning. I want to try and say to people, Don't stop there. Carry on.
00:18:41:17 - 00:18:42:10
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:42:11 - 00:18:49:14
George Challouma
Forever learning. And you've got to evolve with how things are going on in this country and around the world.
00:18:49:15 - 00:19:04:11
Helen Fitzhugh
Yeah, Yeah. Thank you, George. Yeah, And we were really glad to have you take part, so I'm glad you got something out of it as well. And I think that is often the case when we do our research is that it sets people off reflecting on things and thinking through things more deeply. So I'm really glad that worked for you as well.
00:19:04:19 - 00:19:23:22
Helen Fitzhugh
So I think yeah thank you so much for speaking with us today. It's been an absolute delight to hear your attitudes towards supporting and developing workers and creating a culture where people can thrive. So brilliant, thank you so much.
00:19:24:01 - 00:19:24:22
George Challouma
Thank you for inviting me.
00:19:25:00 - 00:19:49:02
Helen Fitzhugh
That's great. Please join us in our ongoing exploration of workplace wellbeing research and lived experience in our monthly podcast as we go forwards. This podcast was produced by the University of East Anglia with the support of UEA Broadcast House, Norwich Business School, RAND Europe and all the members of the Workplace Wellbeing Research Team. You can find out more about our team as a whole,
00:19:49:11 - 00:20:19:23
Helen Fitzhugh
our research and use our practical, business-focused resources to improving organizational wellbeing at www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org
