The Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast
The Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast
Using evidence to support organisational development
In this podcast, Professor Kevin Daniels of the Workplace Wellbeing team at the University of East Anglia speaks with Valarie Williams-Foy, Senior Organisational Development Consultant at Imperial College London. They talk about how evidence can be used to support organisational development.
A note for those who may be coming in fresh to listening to our podcasts...
- Mention of 'Helen' refers to Dr Helen Fitzhugh, producer of this podcast and another member of the Workplace Wellbeing Team at the University of East Anglia.
- Mention of the 'Hackathon' refers to a day event put on by the PrOPEL Hub (www.propelhub.org) in 2022 where Kevin Daniels and Helen Fitzhugh facilitated workshops on workplace wellbeing.
- Mention of the '4 boosts' refers to a project carried out at UEA to define 4 boosts for frontline workers (e.g. in retail, hospitality and care) which resulted in evidence-based resources that are free to download at: https://evolveworkplacewellbeing.org/4-boosts-for-frontline-workers/
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:34:13
Helen Fitzhugh
Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing Podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free evidence-informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research Team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org.
Kevin Daniels
So today we are going to be talking about how you use evidence in your practice and especially around organizational development and change.
00:00:34:13 - 00:00:58:02
Kevin Daniels
So as most of us will know, change can be quite a stressful time in organizations for people at work. But if you're going to improve things, you’ve also got to change things. So it's kind of a it's a double edged sword really, isn't it? Or a fine tightrope to walk, but your role is in organizational development, isn't it?
00:00:58:02 - 00:01:25:21
Kevin Daniels
So could you explain a little bit about who you are and what you do, please Valarie?
Valarie Williams-Foy
Yeah. So my name is Valarie Williams-Foy, and I am one of four senior OD consultants in the People and Organizational development team. And in my role, the university is split up into four parts, almost into quarters, and I cover the areas that are all of professional services and the business school, but in that role,
00:01:25:21 - 00:02:02:16
Valarie Williams-Foy
so I have responsibilities for those areas directly. Then I also lead a number of org wide like strategic projects. I am also the lead for our internal coaching academy and also as well the Onboarding Leadership Programme, which is a combination of both academic and professional services stuff
Kevin Daniels
So for people don't know universities, it's not just academic staff, people with PhDs, there is a whole bunch of estates and IT technicians and a quite diverse workforce to deal with.
00:02:02:18 - 00:02:25:10
Valarie Williams-Foy
It's just it's just like any other business. It's just that, of course, we associate universities with granting Degrees, student experience, which are very important. But of course, yeah, there are other people as well and the support function that enables the academic staff to be able to do and deliver what they do on behalf of our students and our other stakeholders.
00:02:25:12 - 00:02:46:08
Kevin Daniels
Okay, that's great news. And then you've got the business school in your remit. So so I guess it's like being a GP looking after GP.
Valarie Williams-Foy
That could be one way to put it. Yeah. Yeah.
Kevin Daniels
So, so we kind of got to know each other. You've got to know Helen through talking about, you know, sort of job quality and wellbeing.
00:02:46:08 - 00:03:21:01
Kevin Daniels
So what kind of attracted you to think about wellbeing in the context of organizational development?
Valarie Williams-Foy
Well, I think is important in terms of creating that great employee experience. And of course sitting in the OD function, culture and employee experience is really important. So I got to meet Helen when the hackathon took place with PrOPEL Hub and of course on that day there's a number of different bits of presentation covering different aspects of, you know, areas of work and people's experience with regards to work.
00:03:21:03 - 00:03:51:24
Valarie Williams-Foy
And then Helen came to the University to do a session for me because of the research that was done with regards to the 4 boosts to frontline leaders and that was something that we worked together on with regards to our director for Campus Services. So SLT came together with regards to looking at the research evidence in terms of how we can boost the experience of frontline workers.
00:03:52:01 - 00:04:15:04
Valarie Williams-Foy
But then a number of the other research, there's loads of stuff, of course, as you know, on the site, you guys have done lots of amazing research. So from time to time I dip in, not necessarily seeing that this particular research is attached to what I'm doing, but just the themes that come through from there that I've used and incorporated in terms of my own practice to make sure that it's evidence based.
00:04:15:04 - 00:04:40:19
Valarie Williams-Foy
And of course that would give me the return that I'm hoping for based on the research evidence.
Kevin Daniels
Ok, that's very kind of you to say actually about our website. First, for our listener, Valarie wasn't prompted to say that it's spontaneous! But I suppose then the next question is, you know, so you're attracted to it, to wellbeing and in using the evidence,
00:04:40:19 - 00:05:26:06
Kevin Daniels
So so what kind of experiences you have using that evidence and how do you go through the process of deciding what evidence to use and how to use it?
Valarie Williams-Foy
So in terms of process, I'm not sure it's it's as structured and systematic as one would imagine, but for me is looking into what are some of the key things that are happening in my area in particular and of course across the university in terms of what it is we're trying to achieve and then seeing how I can incorporate evidence in terms of solutioneering that I might be coming up with with regards to that.
00:05:26:08 - 00:05:50:11
Valarie Williams-Foy
So if I take, for example, in terms of, you know, lots of the research that you guys have done, the importance of job quality for a job, for example, which is something I think that most times managers and leaders are mindful of and intentional with regards just assume that people come to work and you know, you have a job and you get along with it, but that can make a significant difference.
00:05:50:13 - 00:06:14:02
Valarie Williams-Foy
And one challenge that we have that comes across all the time in terms of our service, etc., is that employees feel they're not stretched, they're not being developed and career development still remains a challenge, particularly if you're not in the academic space. So if you're academic, there's a kind of clear pathway to move from one position to the next, so to speak.
00:06:14:04 - 00:06:47:23
Valarie Williams-Foy
But if your professional or PTO staff, that might be a little bit more of a challenge. So certainly with regards to thinking about job quality and also looking for opportunities for stretch, it is something that I have incorporated in terms of the leadership development program as one of the key areas for leaders being transformational leaders, the importance of creating that kind of workplace culture where they can stretch employees and develop them.
00:06:48:00 - 00:07:09:06
Valarie Williams-Foy
Because normally when they think about development, they tend to think about formal develop and go into a workshop or doing some training, etc. And while that is good and I'm certainly not going to put myself out of business by saying it isn't, there are lots of opportunities in the informal space and development actually in the flow of work.
00:07:09:08 - 00:07:47:18
Valarie Williams-Foy
So certainly from a messaging point of view, that is something that I have incorporated with a view of improving the quality of the job quality and also the experience that members of teams in department may have. And also because I'm the Academy Lead, the intention is to perhaps the word is ‘democratize’ the coaching skills that you can give to leaders with a view of them being able to create that great experience again, from being able to harness people's potential as they deal with them.
00:07:47:20 - 00:08:25:22
Kevin Daniels
Sure. I guess, kind of listening to what you said there, this needing to adapt what you might be hearing from, you know it from your own sort of a continuing professional development or reading the professional journals to to a specific circumstance. So so a democratization of the process. I think that's important. But one of the things we hear quite a lot talking to practitioners is, you know, where do you find the evidence and what does it look like?
00:08:25:22 - 00:08:50:23
Kevin Daniels
So how did you go about that process? What would be your your main sources of evidence-based practice?
Valarie Williams-Foy
I think I look in a number of different places. So I mean, definitely check out some of the resources that you guys have, because I think it's pretty comprehensive in terms of different areas of the employee lifecycle. Yes, there's lots of stuff there.
00:08:51:00 - 00:09:25:05
Valarie Williams-Foy
And also for me, I belong to a number of different associations like OD HE network, the SDF network, CIPD. CIPD does some fantastic research on different areas, so you can definitely start in terms of positioning the business case. There's lots of research evidence that would come from that and depending on who I'm dealing with to see if it may be some more business savvy end of my portfolio, maybe, you know, Harvard Business Review or looking at something like that.
00:09:25:07 - 00:09:51:07
Valarie Williams-Foy
And from a practitioner point of view, really kind of tapping into networks of people that are in my community from an OD point of view, hearing what other people have done and what it is they're working on and the approaches that they're taking. So I think I'm pretty much widespread in terms of the approach that I would take in terms of incorporating evidence.
00:09:51:07 - 00:10:19:16
Valarie Williams-Foy
But I normally like to start there because it's easier, I think, to to make the case I think is easier also to convince people that this is something that could potentially work even if they themselves may not have been aware of the evidence before. But it's a good place to start the conversation. And then, of course, after you have that data, the evidence is kind of like the foundation in which you build a house, but then you have to customize the house now to the people.
00:10:19:17 - 00:10:40:09
Valarie Williams-Foy
It's going to be inside the house. That's where you do the translating and you do a bit of co-creating, perhaps with your stakeholder, as to what would that mean know for us, given where we are, what are some of the potential challenges or obstacles that we may encounter?
Kevin Daniels
Yeah, so it's it's not uncritically applying evidence. It's as you say, it's co-created.
00:10:40:09 - 00:11:05:24
Kevin Daniels
It's it's a a process of adaptation and inclusive adaptation.So I'm going to ask you in a second about all the sources of evidence, but in terms of, you know, external evidence, as you might get through your professional networks or other places, what what criteria do you decide or do you use to say, well, actually that's I can trust that piece of evidence?
00:11:06:12 - 00:11:44:00
Valarie Williams-Foy
It's a very good I like case studies, so I like stuff that is proven with obviously qualitative and quantitative data that suggests that it has met the expectations that was set out at the beginning of the project. I think that I also look for reputable publications or reputable organizations and then also specialisms or I mean, might be working on something specifically going back to wherever that source of specialism may be.
00:11:44:06 - 00:12:16:14
Valarie Williams-Foy
And also thinking certainly for me, because my background is mainly business and I've worked in business and higher education is a new thing for me. So I constantly revisit looking at business in terms of practices as to what might be happening and what can I take that could work because not all of it could work. And even if you did take something that could work, how you implement it and how you deliver it, you would have to adapt that approach because it's a completely different kind of context and environment sometimes.
00:12:16:18 - 00:12:40:06
Valarie Williams-Foy
Sometimes you could just take it off the shelf and you can just use it, but then sometimes you might need to mix it with a few other things and give it a different colour, different feel, a different look. But it's the same thing, you know, that's to get it to fly. If I can say that. So, you know, taking that kind of positioning approach sometimes is is necessary.
00:12:40:06 - 00:13:10:03
Valarie Williams-Foy
But yeah, so for me, if I were to summarize what has worked, what is the evidence of it working, the reputation of the institution, the reputation of the body of research, who's putting out the research, I think those are really important. And if it's expert's expertise in a particular area of specialism, that's also a factor to be taken into account.
00:13:10:05 - 00:13:34:16
Kevin Daniels,
So I mean, we kind of make the assumption this is external research evidence, but of course there's loads of internal evidence and intelligence in the in the organization employee surveys and things like that. So so how do you use that kind of evidence?
Valarie Williams-Foy
So I think through the employee survey information, I find that's a really good source of information.
00:13:34:18 - 00:13:58:21
Valarie Williams-Foy
And I know we are moving to have like pulse surveys, which I think would be useful even more more useful as well, because the employee survey, in terms of the depth of it, that probably happens like every year and a half to two years, like the big comprehensive one, the pulse, one kind of, you know, keep you in check us as to where things may be.
00:13:58:23 - 00:14:31:06
Valarie Williams-Foy
Two things that I have done in terms of connection and being part of the conversation, which are aspects of the 4 boosts, for example, trying to create that. One of them is I've created an operational people and culture kind of working group network. So that is for all the operational leads in the different areas that I cover, Who do people and culture type work.
00:14:31:08 - 00:14:57:18
Valarie Williams-Foy
So while we sit in HR usually in very big departments, you still have someone who will, you know, translate the employee survey results put together working group, kind of like a task force still to work on a few things in terms of what they implemented. So I've created a network where people like that we all come together to talk about different things and also use that as a medium to invite other people who might be working.
00:14:57:22 - 00:15:23:07
Valarie Williams-Foy
So a means of bringing in expertise internally from within the organization to to help shape that in terms of our conversation and our our discussion and then also from the within the network, because it's kind of like a community of practice, we do have an opportunity for people to share what's going on in their respective areas so we can all learn from each other as well.
00:15:23:07 - 00:16:01:14
Valarie Williams-Foy
So using some of that kind of internal data and of course we have the business school, so it is, you know, lots of stuff in the people and organizational behavioural space that we also have access to that we could bring in depending on what the case the case may be. So from our internal point of view, I think there are numerous opportunities really, but it's creating those opportunities for conversation, opportunities for community and bringing people together and connecting, which of course is slightly more challenging with hybrid,
00:16:01:14 - 00:16:37:12
Valarie Williams-Foy
so you have to kind of give people a purpose and a reason as to why they would come together. You know, make the benefits of doing that obvious and meaningful for them to bring them together. So that's some of it where we also have a People and Culture forum, which is for more of the senior leaders, just looking at some of the key topics that is of interest to us based on where we are in terms of our journey, the kind of culture and employee experience we want to have and to create.
00:16:37:14 - 00:17:03:24
Valarie Williams-Foy
And that has incorporated a bit about, so bringing in sometimes external expertise and internal expertise as well to share and to provide clarity and discussion around what might be happening: information policy to practice It’s a difference between having the policy which is the document on the website, to so let's see, have a conversation now. Okay. So what does that look like for us in practice and what would we need to do?
00:17:03:24 - 00:17:37:24
Valarie Williams-Foy
So I'm sitting over here. What does that look like for me? What are some of the challenges that I have experience compared to someone sitting over there? So just kind of creating that kind of forum for those conversations to happen as well.
Kevin Daniels,
Yeah, that's great, isn't it? Kind of, you know, sort of you have to really focus on the action. Because I know organizations that don't have written wellbeing policies, but they do very well on wellbeing because it's actually focus on on what to do rather than what's in the policy.
00:17:38:01 - 00:18:01:03
Kevin Daniels
So that does focus on action, ff course, this is really, you know, it's important to, you know, sort of maintain and retain. I'm suppose this leads neatly onto the next question, Valerie, you're talking about action. So so can can you give us some examples of real life changes that you've made and and how you used the evidence in in making those changes?
00:18:01:05 - 00:18:43:11
Valarie Williams-Foy
Did the two things in terms of the the components that your research shows with regards to creating great workplace wellbeing, culture. So one of it was around environment and that's the cultural element. And the other one was around relationships, because I think those two are a challenge for us because of the devolved nature in terms of how we are set up and the fact that sometimes it's not easy to bring people together to work on stuff and there aren't many cross-functional working, certainly not in the regular day to day work.
00:18:43:11 - 00:19:08:13
Valarie Williams-Foy
Of course, at the very highest level you will have a lot more of that where they come together to to talk about stuff. So I think for me, in terms of the evidence, those two areas are something that I've tried to incorporate into my practice and be a bit intentional about that. But for me in in the work around environment and culture, because of course I sit in OD,
00:19:08:13 - 00:19:40:23
Valarie Williams-Foy
so culture is one of the key things and bringing people together through the forum, through the network that has been created and that has been going well for people to have these conversations and a platform and a forum to be able to do that. I think it's it's quite useful. And then the building of those relationships generally, they would sit almost siloed as you know, that could happen in universities and not necessarily connect with each other in that kind of way.
00:19:40:23 - 00:20:13:19
Valarie Williams-Foy
So that forging of relationships and getting to know people from different places and even the the leadership programme that I mentioned to you earlier, the fact that the programme in and of itself has brought PTO staff and academic staff in the same leadership development program is again forging relationships and connections with each other that on a day to day basis, you probably wouldn't really have the opportunity to do that in that kind of space.
00:20:13:21 - 00:20:42:03
Valarie Williams-Foy
So, you know, just just creating these interventions to help to facilitate that. Some of the the things that I've been working on.
Kevin Daniels
Yeah. I was going to ask you about are silos and the challenges of culture there, because you do have I mean, you talk to people and they kind of think universities are monolithic organizations. And one way of thinking about them actually is each department has its own culture.
00:20:42:05 - 00:21:09:02
Kevin Daniels
Your medical school will have a very different culture to your business school because of, you know, the training of the academics is very, very different. And the requirements for, you know, sort of technician functions are obviously very different. And of course, like, you know, you're in inner City university, so there'll be security everywhere. Everything has to be swapped in and out, and that you know, creates barriers between, I mean, literally creates barriers between people as well.
00:21:09:02 - 00:21:43:06
Kevin Daniels
So, so so do you find that kind of joint work again, getting the professional service functions together with the academic staff as a useful way of creating some sort of cultural connection between people?
Valarie Williams-Foy
Yeah, definitely. And I think that if you like, if you just stepped up into a director role, for example, a director for a particular area and you are at the beginning of that leadership journey, you get to know people on the opposite side.
00:21:43:08 - 00:22:08:17
Valarie Williams-Foy
Then you, you start off together, which is the premise of the Onboarding Leadership Development programme for PTO and academic staff. So you start off already with that relationship so that when the work comes in one year, six months, you have those connections already. You know who to reach out to if it's even, if it's just to get advice about how to approach something.
00:22:08:19 - 00:22:30:19
Valarie Williams-Foy
And you by being part in the same space where you're being developed, you know, you get a better understanding and appreciation of the world in which each other lives. And that understanding in and of itself is going to build a trust to allow the conversation and the deepening in terms of the depth and breadth of the relationship to be harnessed.
00:22:30:24 - 00:22:58:06
Valarie Williams-Foy
So if we can capture that as early as possible, I think that will really help in terms of making breaking down the silos by bringing people together through different networks and forums and also in terms of that relationship, of that connection with each other.
Kevin Daniels
And how did you come to this decision to have this kind of conversations between different, different functions?
00:22:58:06 - 00:23:34:10
Kevin Daniels
Was this something that was was there a specific piece of evidence or is this just intuition on your part because it seems like a good idea?
Valarie Williams-Foy
Yes, I think it's a combination of evidence and yeah, maybe maybe a bit of you know, in terms of what I've seen work before, because what what we previously had is we had an academic leadership development programme that was pretty established, but not necessarily one that was professional services.
00:23:34:10 - 00:24:00:01
Valarie Williams-Foy
that was pretty established even though we had lots of development, of course, in the professional services space. So I think it's asking the question that sometimes you you haven’t necessarily ask before, why not? What would prevent us from bringing the two worlds together? Nothing really.
Kevin Daniels
No, that's a that I mean, that's just a great answer because you do have to ask those questions, don't you?
00:24:00:05 - 00:24:19:04
Kevin Daniels
Yeah, sometimes. You know, though, it might not have been your academic leader, you don't have any evidence that it wasn't working. But a question. Well, you know, how could this be different or what could we do for these staff, which I think is is just as important as using the evidence is is to know what to what to ask.
00:24:19:06 - 00:24:44:01
Kevin Daniels
So, you know, you know, if people weren’t asking questions, then we wouldn't be doing what we would do would be doing is as researchers, we'd be doing what we, you know, we would think is important, but practitioners see is important. So, so so I think, you know, this is important to see things from, you know, and for us as researchers to listen to, you know, what is needed.
00:24:44:04 - 00:25:07:00
Kevin Daniels
Because, you know, for us as researchers, that's often where we get the, you know, really good ideas. It's someone saying, well, why haven't you you've been researching this? So we didn't know it was an issue. So, so so it's it's great, you know, did you know to ask those kind of questions as well and then go out and find so, so using evidence isn't a passive thing is it?
00:25:07:00 - 00:25:32:16
Kevin Daniels
It's something that you…
Valarie Williams-Foy
Yeah. Can be a bit luck and sometimes of course you, you, you pilots, you try things, you have a hunch that something would work. It’s Okay. Calculated risk is okay. You try it, you see how it work? You might, You modify it, as the case may be. Make some amendments, you make some changes, and you go again.
00:25:32:16 - 00:26:02:19
Valarie Williams-Foy
You go back, you get more feedback and you refine, it’s a continuous process. I guess it's just like publishing books. You have updated versions done through the new edition, and the edition has some more information than the previous editions and it incrementally gets better.
Kevin Daniels
I think that's exactly that's a good analogy. But the thing there about about piloting because sometimes, you know, you talk to practitioners and you know, why aren't you doing anything about wellbeing or, you know, mental health or
00:26:02:19 - 00:26:37:18
Kevin Daniels
and you get a can of worms, answer ‘We, you know, we don't want to open that can of worms’. So if, if you never try and I think we used to have a guy actually in the university I used to teach at and he’d tell the story. They introduced this new performance management scheme on the shop floor and this factory was, I mean, the manager of and used to tell the students that only caused one fight, you know, but then he knew he didn't, you know, that performance management scheme wasn't working and he modified it.
00:26:37:20 - 00:27:03:12
Kevin Daniels
So it's you know, it is important to trial things and not every management innovation ends with people throwing punches. So I think that's the risk of that is just a calculated risk is is quite small and I think it is important, you know, people do address different difficult issues and as you say, learn, learn and adapt. Yeah, that is you know, that is one of the things that we've learned from from the literature: the successful wellbeing
00:27:03:12 - 00:27:25:03
Kevin Daniels
strategies are ones where people learn and adapt and they pilot and there is not a silver bullet and you won't get it right the first time, or you'll be very lucky if you do.
Valarie Williams-Foy
And and and also as well, you know, as I mentioned to you when I was seeing like, you know, you have HR policies, but what does that look like in practice?
00:27:25:08 - 00:27:51:20
Valarie Williams-Foy
So the translation from policy, which is a document to practice sometimes you need to have conversations about that in order to be able to get the evidence in, collect the feedback, to be able to refine the policy because it normally start from a well-meaning place in terms of the objectives, but in terms of the implementations and the practicalities of when it unfolds in the lives of people,
00:27:51:20 - 00:28:37:09
Valarie Williams-Foy
you know, it's the kind of framework in which decisions are made. What does that look like and what do we need to tweak and change accordingly? So I think constantly there's this need for improvement to keep listening, to keep tweaking, to keep sharing, to keep coming back. I think it's a never-ending process. So I don't think any product or any solution could be in its final form if it wants to be the best that it could be, constantly needs to be going through this process of getting feedback, improving, learning, changing, etc. But I don't think even with evidence we can be too scared to try stuff.
00:28:37:11 - 00:29:12:19
Valarie Williams-Foy
I think we need to be prepared to not get it right and and adjust accordingly. And even if there is evidence, it may, because it's a different institution and different people and different contexts, different superstructures, system processes, technology, etc. the results may unfold differently from what the evidence is based on all these factors, so you will need to adjust accordingly and pivot depending on, you know, where it is going.
00:29:12:21 - 00:29:40:11
Kevin Daniels
So it's a question of being flexible and humble, I suppose, with with the evidence and usually using it critically, I suppose with intelligence rather than just that seems to work over there, so we'll try here and then be surprised when it doesn't work. There's something which happens a lot. Okay, So, One last question
00:29:40:11 - 00:30:13:03
Kevin Daniels
Valarie, what one single thing would you like to pass on to the audience?
Valarie Williams-Foy
The purpose of evidence to me is to make something better. So it only happens when you implement it and you put some actions next to it to hopefully get some of the the results that it has described. So the implementation for me is testing that description in the real world and see if that's true.
00:30:13:05 - 00:30:41:24
Kevin Daniels
Yeah, that that's actually the idea the idea of piloting but also having conversations has come across quite strongly in how you've been talking about your own practice today. It's really important to, as you say, have those critical friends, have those conversations and refine what you're doing. So that has been incredibly enjoyable, Valarie. Really, really interesting to to to listen about what you do.
00:30:42:01 - 00:30:59:19
Kevin Daniels
Also, for me, as someone who works in the university, of course, to find out a little bit about how the universities do things as well, but that does been great. Thank you so much. That has been so interesting. Thanks.
Valarie Williams-Foy
Thank you so much. Lovely. It's been a pleasure to be with to be here and of course, to answer some of these questions.
00:30:59:19 - 00:31:15:04
Valarie Williams-Foy
So, yeah, thank you for the opportunity.
Helen Fitzhugh
Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org We look forward to seeing you next time.
