Unpacking how entrepreneurs maintain wellbeing under pressure

In this podcast, Prof Kevin Daniels of the University of East Anglia talks with Dr Juliane Opel of the University of Kassel in Germany. They discuss the paradox of high satisfaction amongst entrepreneurs who face working conditions (stress, instability etc.) that are know to lower satisfaction in other types of employment. Juliane draws on her current postdoctoral and previous PhD work, outlining different ways in which entrepreneurs reach a point of satisfaction in face of overwhelming odds.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:02

Helen Fitzhugh

Welcome to the Evolve Workplace Wellbeing podcast. This podcast is part of a toolkit of free, evidence informed workplace wellbeing resources provided by the Workplace Wellbeing Research team at the University of East Anglia in the UK. You can find the resources on www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org.

00:00:29:04 - 00:00:55:01

Kevin Daniels

Hello and welcome to another Evolve Wellbeing podcast. Today's topic is entrepreneurship and wellbeing and I'm delighted to have Dr Juliane Opel from the University of Kassel in Germany talking to us. I know Juliane because I'm a regular visitor to Kassel, but I've yet really to have an in-depth conversation about this particular project that she's been, working on the past few years.

00:00:55:03 - 00:01:03:04

Kevin Daniels

So, Juliane, could you just introduce yourself to to our listeners who you are, what do you do? And so forth.

00:01:03:06 - 00:01:27:09

Juliane Opel

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Thank you for having me, first of all in this wonderful podcast. So, yeah, my name is Juliane, and I'm a work and organizational psychologist and also a postdoctoral researcher. As Kevin already mentioned, at the University of Kassel. Yeah. And I'm part of the Department of Business Psychology, which is, chaired by Professor Sandra Ohly.

00:01:27:09 - 00:02:14:22

Juliane Opel

And, I would say our department broadly investigates wellbeing related aspects of work in general. And I'm mostly interested in wellbeing of entrepreneurs. And, actually, that interest in wellbeing, of entrepreneurs, actually grew out of my PhD research, which addressed entrepreneurial teams in general and, throughout my, PhD work, I had the chance to talk, a lot to various, different entrepreneurs and realized or rapidly saw that, most, a lot of entrepreneurs, face a lot of pressures and, yeah, that they often struggle with wellbeing and mental health related issues during the new venture creation process.

00:02:14:22 - 00:02:20:22

Juliane Opel

And therefore I decided to, kind of, dedicate more of my postdoctoral work, to that topic.

00:02:21:01 - 00:02:35:01

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. Fantastic. And could you tell us a little bit about your current work please? I think we should draw on your PhD work as well when we're discussing, entrepreneurial wellbeing, but can you give us an idea about what you're currently working on? 

00:02:35:01 - 00:03:05:22

Juliane Opel

Yeah, sure. And so, the original idea of, this project, came about a basic paradox we see a lot in the entrepreneurship literature. So when we look at the everyday reality of most of the entrepreneurs, they work under conditions that we know from decades of psychology, typically lower wellbeing. So, for instance, long working hours, financial insecurity and uncertainty, constant responsibility and very little opportunity to switch off, honestly.

00:03:05:22 - 00:03:38:18

Juliane Opel

And, yeah, in most other jobs, these demands would reliably reduce job satisfaction and, harm health over time, probably. And, when we look at the data, especially, quantitative questionnaires where people rate their satisfaction, for instance, on a simple 1 to 5 rating scale, we consistently see very high scores among entrepreneurs. So on the paper, this, they look as they if they are doing remarkably well, even though the demands are objectively tough and….

00:03:38:20 - 00:03:41:09

Kevin Daniels

So it looks like they're really enjoying the jobs.

00:03:41:11 - 00:04:04:08

Juliane Opel

Yes, they do. But, as I said, they're facing constantly, high demands. And it's quite tough what they're actually facing. And, yeah, we see we see this kind of paradox. And, the the field often highlights the advantages of entrepreneurship, like autonomy and meaning. These high scores were frequently interpreted as evidence that founders

00:04:04:08 - 00:04:25:04

Juliane Opel

are simply thriving. Right. But there's, as I said, actually this paradox that the numbers suggest they're doing great, but the conditions, on the other hand, suggest quite the opposite. And, out of this paradox, the project grew, I would say. So we wanted we wanted to really understand how these two things kind of can coexist.

00:04:25:04 - 00:04:38:02

Juliane Opel

So we asked the kind of fundamental question about how founders, actually what founders actually mean when they say they are satisfied and what psychological processes are behind these high satisfaction scores.

00:04:38:02 - 00:04:44:22

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. So so how entrepreneurs might interpret the work environment might be different from someone who's got a standard employment contract.

00:04:44:24 - 00:04:45:20

Juliane Opel

Exactly.

00:04:45:20 - 00:05:00:07

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. That's that that's that's fascinating. So could you give us some idea what about the scale of the problem? The number of entrepreneurs, say in Germany and, you know, there's a high proportion in the UK, but I couldn't give you any statistics for the UK.

00:05:00:09 - 00:05:28:03

Juliane Opel

So, first of all, before I give you some statistics, it's, it's maybe important to talk about… So if I talk about entrepreneurs, I really mean those self-employed individuals in general. So people who work for themselves with or without employees and who carry out the primary responsibility for the business and, when we look at the data across the European Union, for instance, this group makes about 12% of the workforce.

00:05:28:05 - 00:05:54:15

Juliane Opel

And although they represent a minority of workers, the businesses they run fall into small and micro enterprise sector. And this sector, is quite huge. So again, if we, look at the data, or see some statistics here. Around 99% of all businesses in the EU are small or micro-enterprises. And together they employ almost half of everyone working in the business economy.

00:05:54:15 - 00:06:00:00

Juliane Opel

And I think that the UK shows quite a similar picture, but [unclear].

00:06:00:03 - 00:06:19:19

Kevin Daniels

Yeah, I think you're right. And it's certainly in the UK context there are more people at some sort of disadvantage that are self-employed as well. So not necessarily, you know, sort of entrepreneurs in the sense of developing a new venture. So ethnic minority groups, disabled groups, for instance, are more likely than other groups to be in self-employment.

00:06:19:19 - 00:06:39:22

Kevin Daniels

Is an added overlay I guess, and I'm not sure how you the EU’s different, but I wouldn't suspect it's that different. As well. So but you have talked about the, you know, kind of the wellbeing and health benefits of being an entrepreneur. You, you know, you report your job as being more satisfying. So could you, could you unpack that a bit more for us?

00:06:39:24 - 00:07:03:10

Juliane Opel

Yeah. But just, I want to make a point. About the numbers. Because so even though we're, we're talking about 12% of the workforce in the EU and probably some something similar in the UK. So the point I'm trying to make here is that even though the entrepreneurs are a small number in person, the businesses they run are kind of the backbone of economy.

00:07:03:10 - 00:07:30:01

Juliane Opel

Right? So, yes, many of these businesses rely very heavily or sometimes entirely on the entrepreneur, him or herself, meaning that if the founder becomes exhausted, burned out or unable to work, it really stays an individual issue. All right. So, that's why the paradox I mentioned earlier matters so much, because entrepreneurs face extremely high and unpredictable demands that carry out economic consequences.

00:07:30:01 - 00:07:50:12

Juliane Opel

And, understanding how, satisfaction in this context is really maintained. And build up is is not just psychologically interesting. I would say it's also critical for business continuity, innovation and a certain extent, I guess, of, economic stability, I would say.

00:07:50:15 - 00:08:00:15

Kevin Daniels

Yeah, that's a really good point to make. Thank you. So because because of course, there's less protections in a larger employer, isn't there?  Harder to go to the government and ask for a subsidy?

00:08:00:19 - 00:08:01:21

Juliane Opel

Absolutely.

00:08:01:23 - 00:08:10:22

Kevin Daniels

So so again, if we could go back to, you know, so what do these people get out of being entrepreneurs? What's what's the, what's the motivation or the positives?

00:08:10:24 - 00:08:37:24

Juliane Opel

Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of advantages to be an entrepreneur. I mean, being your own boss has the advantage that you have the freedom to decide when to work. Where to work, what to work. And, you can make your own decisions, pursue the ideas through your personal belief. And, and I think that is, a degree, of autonomy that you rarely see in the classic or traditional employment setting.

00:08:37:24 - 00:09:07:22

Juliane Opel

And that's definitely an advantage. I would say. But we also see very often in the entrepreneurship research, what has been discussed is the strong sense of meaning. So building something from scratch, seeing the inputs, seeing the impact, feeling that they are, work truly matters. As something that, yeah, that that's really high in entrepreneurs. I would say additionally, probably the intense personal growth as well.

00:09:07:22 - 00:09:33:12

Juliane Opel

So if I talk to entrepreneurs, they even mention that even when it's hard and, building a new venture feels almost like, you know, having a roller coaster with lots of ups and downs. Yeah. They feel that that you're learning, constantly. And that's also something that they really enjoy. And I would say all these advantages are powerful sources of wellbeing in general.

00:09:33:14 - 00:09:46:00

Kevin Daniels

Okay. Great. So so we've done the advantages, as you mentioned, that there are problems, but not necessarily problems that are obvious in the wellbeing statistics. So what are the problems encountered? 

00:09:46:02 - 00:10:10:14

Juliane Opel

Oh, well. To start with the most obvious and I guess that's the one I mentioned in the very beginning. There's no safety net, right? So entrepreneurs live with constant uncertainty financially and emotionally wise. So imagine waking up not knowing whether the next client will come through or whether a single setback would jeopardize the whole business. And that kind of uncertainty doesn't switch off at 5 p.m.

00:10:10:16 - 00:10:41:13

Juliane Opel

And it's a constant and especially in these early phases of the new venture creation process, where no financial backbone has been built so far, that's definitely something that builds up in a way or spirals down whatever. And I would say another challenge is how blurred the boundaries becomes. So many founders, told us that they think about the business late at night during family time or even while they're trying to relax, and their work follows them everywhere, and their mind is constantly on duty.

00:10:41:13 - 00:11:12:06

Juliane Opel

And, that can be quite exhausting. So, that's definitely something they they really struggle from time to time. I would say. Another thing entrepreneurs really have to cope with is the emotional load in a way. So when you're running a business, you're the person, everyone turns to, you're responsible. But you often have no one to turn to yourself, and that can be kind of feel isolating.

00:11:12:06 - 00:11:45:00

Juliane Opel

So loneliness and sometimes a lack of support is definitely, a thing they have to cope. And on top of that, many entrepreneurs describe the business almost as the baby. So this baby analogy is something that, yeah, really came up a lot of times, during working with, with entrepreneurs. So they describe them as something they've built, they've protective, they've poured themselves into, and that deep identification can be motivating for sure, but it also makes every setback feel very personal.

00:11:45:03 - 00:12:03:18

Juliane Opel

So in some, entrepreneurship can be meaningful, can be exciting. Most entrepreneurs thrive because they can really, yeah. Feel joy. With, with the things they do and build, but the emotional and cognitive load is undeniably high. I would say.

00:12:03:21 - 00:12:15:20

Kevin Daniels

Yeah. Because because one of the if I remember correctly, the new ventures have a very high failure rate. You know, if any of the people you interviewed actually talks about, you know, overcoming failure and what they do.

00:12:15:22 - 00:12:42:03

Juliane Opel

Well, actually not in the, in, in this data set, I'm talking about in a couple of minutes. But, throughout my PhD research, we talked a lot about failure. There are some serial entrepreneurs and they, to my feeling they, they are talking more openly about failure. And this, failure is more seen as, yeah, part of the progress from time to time.

00:12:42:05 - 00:13:00:17

Juliane Opel

But there is definitely a lot of research about, how to cope with failure and that this is definitely a kind of identity threat. Okay. Yeah. An identity threat that, yeah, has also a negative impact, on individual wellbeing of the entrepreneurs.

00:13:00:19 - 00:13:07:03

Kevin Daniels

So by identity threat, you're referring to something that's very personal, a threat to to almost yourself.

00:13:07:05 - 00:13:25:03

Juliane Opel

Yeah, exactly. So that's what I meant with the baby analogy. So. Yeah, if you're thinking about your business as a baby and then the baby. Yeah. Don't come up as you imagined it would, develop over time. Yeah. It can be seen as an identity threat. Yeah.

00:13:25:04 - 00:13:44:05

Kevin Daniels

Yeah, sure. Okay. So, yeah, be tough to deal with. So. So in terms of your own project, then. So what kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs or people that, you know, set policy around innovation or self-employment. You know, so, you know, do you find any findings, have any anything to tell us in that respect?

00:13:44:07 - 00:14:15:06

Juliane Opel

Yeah. I will give you a short introduction about the the basic findings, I would say about this, project. So, while our study offers not a direct solution to all this pressures and demands, I was talking about that entrepreneurs face, the, the study about evaluating job satisfaction of entrepreneurs definitely provide us with a clearer picture about how they managed to stay satisfied under these high demands and all the problems they face.

00:14:15:08 - 00:14:43:03

Juliane Opel

And what we actually found is that satisfaction in entrepreneurship doesn't simply arise from all the well known benefits, like autonomy and meaning. Those matter, of course, but they don't fully explain this paradox I introduced at the very beginning. And, what we found is that entrepreneurs actually construct satisfaction through different psychological routes. So in other words, satisfaction is not something that happens if the conditions are right.

00:14:43:05 - 00:15:11:23

Juliane Opel

It's something that they work for mentally and emotionally to make their demanding reality, to feel manageable enough to continue this whole new venture creation process. So I don't want to go too much into detail on all the findings, but essentially, what we found are five different, I would say qualitative forms of satisfaction with unique characteristics and psychological processes.

00:15:12:00 - 00:15:33:24

Juliane Opel

For instance, some founders really stay satisfied because their project and their process generally energized them. And even small wins give them a sense of momentum. So that satisfaction really grows out of achievement and the feeling of building something step by step. And I would say this is something everyone can relate to, to achieve something, you feel satisfied.

00:15:34:01 - 00:16:03:07

Juliane Opel

But what we also found are, satisfaction types that are more grounded in a pragmatic way. So, some entrepreneurs really acknowledge that things throughout the new venture creation process are tough. And, they actively reframe these, challenges. So focusing on what they can control, that satisfaction comes from coping constructively, so to say, not from this constant growth from the other type.

00:16:03:09 - 00:16:28:21

Juliane Opel

And there’s also a third pattern, just to make it, a bit more contrasting about these, different forms. And the satisfaction is, I would say, a little bit more fragile. So these entrepreneurs keep going by glossing over problems and pushing discomfort aside. So on the surface and that I have to stress at this point, they all reported that they are in general satisfied with what they're doing.

00:16:28:21 - 00:17:03:09

Juliane Opel

Right? But this type make clear that although they sound very positive underneath. They don't exactly and actively cope with all the strain and obstacles and problems they're facing. They're just being masked and kind of sugar coated. All the problems that came up. And, that's where the paradox became clear at this point. So entrepreneurs can appear highly satisfied and, talk about how how much they like what they work, but not because everything is fine, but because they use different forms of work to keep functioning in their daily life.

00:17:03:09 - 00:17:37:17

Juliane Opel

So put differently two entrepreneurs might report the exact same satisfaction score. Yet one make may may feel generally fulfilled and another may be pushing through self-doubt or sugarcoating all the problems and so on. So I would say this finding kind of shifts the conversation to a certain extent. So instead of assuming that high satisfaction, automatically indicates good wellbeing and everything's good, we now see it kind of reflect very different underlying psychological processes.

00:17:37:17 - 00:17:51:02

Juliane Opel

And that differentiation, I think, is crucial if we want to understand entrepreneurial wellbeing in a meaningful way. And if we want to, yeah, support entrepreneurs in a way that fit to all experiences, I would say.

00:17:51:02 - 00:18:04:14

Kevin Daniels

Okay, great, thank you. And then, is there any sense in the data what differentiates these three patterns, something about the entrepreneurs or is it something else or a you're not at a position to to say that yet with the data?

00:18:04:16 - 00:18:41:01

Juliane Opel

So I would not consider that every entrepreneur just falls into one specific category, so entrepreneurs can feel different forms of the satisfaction. So, in some cases, entrepreneurs may experience the thriving form of satisfaction, and in other cases they might be able to cope. But we can’t say yet, if there's, a pattern, for instance, that, entrepreneurs can only, yeah, experience, just 2 or 3 forms or something.

00:18:41:01 - 00:18:46:05

Juliane Opel

So there's no overarching type until now. What we can say about the data.

00:18:46:08 - 00:19:07:14

Kevin Daniels

Okay. That's great. Thank you very much. So is there anything that you might sort of take from the data and say, this is what might be done in terms of helping entrepreneurs, helping entrepreneurs to help themselves or, or even simply understanding, you know, these processes might be useful.

00:19:07:16 - 00:19:37:08

Juliane Opel

Absolutely. So I would say, it has practical implications in terms of awareness and reflection and also in how we should think in the future about shaping support systems in the entrepreneurship ecosystem. So for instance, based on these model we've developed. So finding, five different, qualitative forms of job satisfaction, should initiate in our, in our understanding kind of spaces for honest reflection.

00:19:37:08 - 00:20:09:04

Juliane Opel

So helping founders reflect on their, theirs is where the satisfaction comes from. Right. So that can yeah make the self regulation more intentional if they, yeah, Really reflect critically on on these things and I would also say we should really think about how we use satisfaction measures in entrepreneurship support in general. So satisfaction is often treated in, in practical ways as a marker for success and that entrepreneurs are doing well.

00:20:09:04 - 00:20:39:18

Juliane Opel

But as we can see in the data and suggest, the picture is quite is is much more complex. So because satisfaction can hide different experiences. Right. So, the findings should definitely be helpful for incubators, for instance, or advisers or coaching or even to use more nuanced indicators if they really want to know more about success and if there's really wellbeing, and not, masking strain behind this.

00:20:39:20 - 00:20:42:20

Juliane Opel

Saying I'm well and I'm satisfied.

00:20:42:22 - 00:21:07:12

Kevin Daniels

That's really interesting because I again, see implications around mentoring schemes. Which, you know, I'm aware have been in place or people that offer coaching services, as well as sort of mutual support networks and communities practice. But I also guess one of the things that I've kind of taken from this conversation as well is you probably need a more nuanced assessment of satisfaction for this group.

00:21:07:14 - 00:21:08:13

Kevin Daniels

In the surveys and the…

00:21:08:15 - 00:21:30:14

Juliane Opel

Absolutely. So, the current conversation in the entrepreneurship literature always, almost often, assess satisfaction just with one item and on the scale quantitatively. But with this data, we can show, well, that's probably not enough to really understand what people mean when they say it is satisfied with their jobs.

00:21:30:16 - 00:21:59:16

Kevin Daniels

One of the things that also struck me as you talk about this group that, you know, struggling and sugarcoating and going back to what we've talked about previously in terms of, you know, disadvantaged groups in labour markets are disproportionately more likely to be to be self-employed. Not necessarily entrepreneurs, but self-employed. I do wonder whether that's some of that sugar coating is, tied up with possibly, you know, being an involuntary entrepreneur rather than necessarily voluntary.

00:21:59:20 - 00:22:18:13

Kevin Daniels

So I guess that's one thing that possibly, you know, people could take forward is to, to look at in research, because there's huge implications for employability gaps between different groups as well. But but in personal terms, where is your research going next? What what would you like. What are you going to do next or what would you like to see next?

00:22:18:13 - 00:22:45:06

Juliane Opel

Well, there's, a very nice German translation of the word self-employed and that actually translate into self and all ways. And I think this is a very nice saying. And the stands for symbolically and literally for their daily life, they seem to work constantly. Right. And this is again, I think contrasts a lot of the classic or traditional wellbeing research.

00:22:45:09 - 00:23:07:21

Juliane Opel

Or the other holy grail about recovery. So switching off and taking time for recovery is important in long term for your health and for your wellbeing in general. And what we see in entrepreneurs is quite the opposite. So we see in and in newer data and research that switching off and really, don't work is nothing.

00:23:07:21 - 00:23:25:24

Juliane Opel

They really use. And yeah, used to recover their, their energy and what I would like to do next, and I'm currently working on that is to really dig into daily routines and explore their practical ways to reset, to reset and to recover throughout the day.

00:23:26:01 - 00:23:41:14

Kevin Daniels

Yeah, I say, of course then you'd be tapping into that great German tradition in research as well. Great research groups coming out of Germany looked at that. So that will be fascinating, to look at as well, because if they are not switching off where do they get their energy from? Yeah.

00:23:41:18 - 00:23:42:09

Juliane Opel

Exactly.

00:23:42:11 - 00:23:43:05

Kevin Daniels

That's brilliant.

00:23:43:08 - 00:23:44:08

Juliane Opel

That’s basically the question.

00:23:44:10 - 00:23:59:24

Kevin Daniels

Yeah that's fantastic. So all that’s left for me to do is thank you very much Juliane, it’s been absolutely fascinating. And it's been lovely to have a conversation with you for the first time for a few months, so that’s been great. And I hope to see you in the not too distant future as well.

00:24:00:04 - 00:24:02:01

Juliane Opel

Thank you so much for having me again.

00:24:02:04 - 00:24:08:02

Kevin Daniels

Oh, thank you for coming on. Brilliant. 

00:24:08:04 - 00:24:19:00

Helen Fitzhugh

Please do visit www.evolveworkplacewellbeing.org. We look forward to seeing you next time.